They also targetted other ships of value where they could cause a large isk loss to the player, even if they were certain to get nothing out of it for themselves.

Best way to get -10 Pirates out in space where people can kill them?

Remove the ******** half-brother of Concord - the Faction Police. (Long overdue since Crimewatch release anyway)

Pirates would no longer be required to stay in station, and so-called 'highsec badasses' that want to 'get them' might have a shot at it.

But removing faction police would just make carebears cry even harder. I can hear it now - "Oh, Oh - that makes the game 'too easy' for criminals!"

You can't have it both ways.

If you want stupid NPC police to protect you by forcing pirates into hiding when idle, you DON'T get to whine when they act in a (rational) way that won't let you 'get at them'.

Why is it suddenly 'beyond the pale' for empty freighters to be ganked?

First, if I was going to lose a freighter - I'd hope it was empty.

Second, do carebears really think there exists some kind of ''unspoken" rule that empty freighters should not be ganked? And if they are ganked - it requires CCP take action?

Ganking freighters doesn't actually provide any emergent gameplay for anybody.
Not even themselves, because sitting in station doesn't equal to playing a game at all.

Oh yes, sure, 30 sec to undock, strike, dock up again.

Wow, so much gameplay provided for everybody!


Anybody who believes they provide any meaningfull content to anybody
is just too dumb to realize the propaganda and too blind to simply
look at what reality shows him.


That being sad ... this is completely useless to even talk about.

The facts are laid out for everybody to see, but the propaganda machine easily
deals with the stupid masses successfully.


The game is too easy, especially for these wannabe bad guys in highsec.

Implying ganking unarmed ships with impunity in highsec is 'fleet warfare'. Aye, truly on par with low and null slugfests - CODE is the new Rooks and Kings.

Thanks for making me chuckle.

Interesting how surviving in game requires not only involvement with the forum run by the game company, but now apparently also requires people to visit non-CCP websites, creating advertising revenue for the owners, in order to obtain intel.

How long before people are required to attend real life meetings? Fanfest? Pay $100/month?

The meta is out of control.

Oh, so the game and real life *aren't* separate. Much clearer now.

We're talking about ganking freighters, not fleet warfare.
The same applies to ganking miners too.

No idea why you're bringing this up. Suicide ganking in masses isn't "warfare" at all.


In case of the freighters, there's one guy making sure that the station has enough ships.
That's not even much effort, because one can find people who produce all this stuff
and even deliver it to the station easily. I tried that, leading to me having hundreds
of thrashers + fitting spread across minmatar, gallente and caldari space.

Then all you need is a neutral alt seeking out targets, while the fleet sits docked in station.

Short:

Target is found.
Fleet instaundocks to safespot.
Fleet warps to target.
Fleet ganks.
Fleet warps back to station, switched to noobships, undocks, pulls CONCORD.
Fleet docks up in base.

In all this time, the gankers were sitting in safety in station,
probably chestbeating themselves are talking down on others who actually play the game.

The longest waits are 15min GCC which don't matter and the alt finding a target.

The ganking as mentioned above, can be done in a single minute, except maybe pulling CONCORD
which adds session timer delays so maybe we push to a minute and thirty MAX.

The issue isn't that they are ganking freighters or anything,
the issue is how they do it, turning people into carebears without realizing it.

Chestbeating from the safety of the station.

I didn't understand it either.

I can entirely see how a gank could cause a player to leave

If the wholesale ganking of freighters causes freighter pilots to remain at their keyboards, tank their freighters, fly with friends, scout the route, check killboards/maps to see activity on their route, watch size/value of cargo, use webbing alts to move faster/ more efficiently or simply wake up and pay attention, then it is worth it.

If all this happens and freighter pilots refuse to make changes to their gameplay, then who is ultimately to blame?

Clue: probably not the gankers.

Same reason everyone bitches about taxes, you work hard for your money and it pisses you off when someone takes it from you. Only difference is you can't not pay taxes but you sure can stop playing eve.

play with myself in a remote system on Sisi [...] I keep coming

In my head everything's easy! I even bought a couple hundred thrashers!

So you not even not adress my post,
you try to ridicule me in a way that works with only the stupidest of people.

What does "gathering people to shoot things" have to do with "finding industrials willing to do what they love" ?

Nothing.


So, do you have any actual experience in suicide ganking solo or in a fleet?




No answer??




Thought so.

Indeed undock warp to zero click overheat press f1 is very hard...

The hardest part for most people is aligning before the fleet warp.

There's always a few plebs left behind.

/guilty

Getting basic support skills to lvl 3 is too much for too little?

His issue was most likely tracking or range.

I would do the same. Erica's corpse would look fine in my collection :)

The PvP system in high sec should be challenging to the attacker and defender equally, and it should not be such a strait-forward system to where either side can determine their success or failure with 100% absolutes.

So this was limited to the op? Not to any of the other freighter pilots ganked while on autopilot?

Oh my.. this thread is getting good.




X up for popcorn refills.

A -10 character, or a character with sec status below the accepted system minimum requirement should not be able to chain gank people. They should be barred from boarding a ship in high security space, or at least barred from entering warp in any ship except for a pod. It's exactly the same as when a concord flagged player tries to undock in a ship or board a ship, concord has you blocked from activating your warp drive. If concord can already do this, then there's no reason why they can't do this automatically to players who fall below the minimum system security status. They can still travel through empire in a pod, they just can't chain gank people. It's stupid that concord would allow this to happen.

there's a "new breed" that isn't interested in anything that is involved or takes effort.

Uh...yeah, right. Your dubious assurances are welcome. Who are you, anyway?
Someone who can give assurances? I'm sure. You must know.

Guess again there Skippy.

Oh. Xuixien. Don't you realize how facts can dampen a perfectly good tantrum???

I love how the CODE "declaration to end all declaratives" sort of slips in this is a game to shoot spaceships, so let's get back to shooting spaceships...as though all this MINING, and MANUFACTURING and MARKETING (he obviously has nothing invested in) are just minor appendages - useless window dressing.

THEREFORE, everyone doing these aren't REALLY playing EVE, right? Right. There you go. The piggy repaints the barn for us. Isn't that "CODE" for passive-aggressively claiming the game shouldn't be changed, except for the useless ... what was that term ... CAREBEAR part... uh huh.

He's bold. He's brash. He's full of it.

So what you're saying is that because I indulge in consensual PVP with other consensual PVP'ers in low security space I should be banned from areas of HS alltogether?

A thought occurred to me as a I browse this thread and the various shitposting and I come to two distinct conclusions about the nature and behavior of all Previous posters:

1. Dumb people still live in High-sec on both fronts of the equation.

2. NPC factions are still an issue in general.

Nothing can solve the first problem, stupid people in EVE is part of the game, Ala Learning Cliff etc etc.

However, having a solution to the NPC faction issue, where you have gankers hiding in stations, or logged off so that they can not be eradicated is not very conducive to the purpose of having neg sec and all the other high-sec hullabaloo.

I propose a simple trade: Make it so Neg sec pilots can reasonably fight Soveriegn Police, but unable to dock or use station services in High-sec, by making killing players in their space hurt their regional faction standings as well as sec status(IE -10 from ganking in amarr space gives you -standing with Amar navy etc)

This solves the problem of nonreciprocal and unbalanced police mechanics, gives another loot source ( people already try and kill concord ships for loot) via Sovereign NPC's, and pushes criminal elements from high-sec for longer term operations.

This I believe would be the more intended mechanics of whats going on right now.

It allows for ganking to occur, Concord will intervene only for pilot ganks, but gankers will not receive the safety and hospitality of high-sec for themselves.

If the Amarr Militia or any faction militia wants to police high-sec of the ganking elements they should be free to do so without concord interference in their respective spaces, they are part of the state and it brings PVP, real pvp, to high-sec standards.

Is this such an unreasonable proposal?

There is actually a new order of content creators who fly around in empty ships whose sole goal is to get ganked.

It's a win win situation with both sides of these content creators.

Personally, I like to just sit and watch.... I find it highly intriguing and extremely intelligent + I can watch old re runs of Rosanne at the same time.

Then advocate the removal of faction police, simple as that.

With very few exceptions(the only one I know of is faction warfare trade hub camping), they HAVE to hide in station. It's not just the smart move, it's the only not-stupid move. They aren't really able to do anything else thanks to repeated punitive mechanics leveled at them at the behest of carebears over the years.

But since it was carebears themselves who caused this situation, if they're crying about it now, then I shall laugh in their faces. They cry about fairness, when the current unfair situation is entirely of their making. To put it more simply, they made their bed. If they don't like how it looks, they should have put some forethought into it in the first place.

It's a fact that their type of behaviour will make players quit the game. EVE subs are dropping. I'm not wrong.

Do you even know what a strawman post is? Did you or did you not on page 19 say the faction popo could be tanked in a T3 or command ship or battleship? Did you or did you not say that the only reason gankers don't use higher value ships is because the faction popo exist? The answer to both is you did and it's all here in this thread.

How about you start to ante up some bigger ships and stop avoiding mechanics? Then you'll see some emergent white knight game play.

This has escalated into a 25 page dreckstorm, all over some nitwit not understanding that exploding ships make the economy go. Someone should die for this IMO.

Do you read what you post?

"I also said that the reason you don't see low sec status pilots in anything except disposable ships is because they are constantly hounded by facpo, so flying more expensive ships is stupid." How does this not imply that the only reason you don't gank in more expensive ships is because of the popo? Did you mean concord? You must see how that is confusing.

I cant tell, is he salvos,de or iz?

Unless you object that arsonists get a carte blanche since the consequences of their actions rarely catch up with them, and never do on them the harm those actions do unto others.

To be completely honest, suicide ganking activities should be increased by a factor of 100

Fair enough, but did this event not show that whether you were at the keyboard, carrying no or low value, fully fitted with every possible module pilots still got killed?

They could sit in the station all day or week. But that is hardly conducice to a vibrant economy.

Give them an inch and they demand a mile.

Why are the allegedly least violent pilots the most offensive?

sit in a 0.5 choke point system, ***** on miniluv's ganks.

"hurr freighter ganking is easy, look at all my killmails"

So the customers decided which players to drive out of the game, wonder what CCP thinks about that. If it was my company I'd be kind of concerned if that was happening.

Bad customers, that's up to CCP to decide not the players.

it's also noticeable that the systems I fly through have less people in them than what they used to have.

People are getting so hung up on the effect of facepo on gankers.
It's really quite minor, except for losing the odd catalyst due to a lag spike or a socket disconnect.
Slight convenience of being able to sit in a ship in space, but can be attacked there - and loitering in a populated area is just not an option, gank ships can be killed by almost anything. Right now the white knights complain that gankers are always docked....well give them a reason to undock.

The real benefit is for pirates who might want to chance a sortie into highsec, looking for someone to shoot at them. Often they'll get a fight, often more than they bargained for. Either way initiative is all with the high sec player. Who benefit from groups, as LE prevents pirates from assisting each other. Win win for bored pirates and wannabe vigilantes who are too scared to go to lowsec and get crushed, without the highsec 'homefield' advantage.

Point conceded. I agree with your assessment.

Irrational behavior is often spontaneous and emotionally driven. Inspite of the laws making it wrong, the probability of an irrational person following through on such a threat is next to nothing

Is it really PVP when your shooting unarmed, indefensible ships.

Then again. I use red frog, and I don't think anyone attacks them.

I didn't meet any New Order in Ordion. All I got was 200million in Ore and Ice. But so many miners fitting for yield, its as though no one cares about the New Order any more?

It would seem that the gankers are either too lazy or slow to keep up with the miners replacing their ships.

Obligatory Popcorn

Instant response. You don't get to use Concord ships because that'd be as OP as letting players have Dev ships. If players want to be Concord for the day, they have to be as beatable as any other PvP gang, by an organised group, and expect a zero Concord response at any sites they're "patrolling".

Back Up? Maybe I'm just inexperienced at this but I don't understand what kind of back up you can have in high sec. Low and Null different story but high sec? What am I missing here?

I might be missing something but I don't know any freighter pilots with deep pockets. They are extremely vulnerable and have to carry around large isk value worth of cargo for what is usually single digit margins. They take large risk for something that takes huge amounts of time and pays out little. I can make much more isk per hour doing pretty much anything else other than flying a frieghter and if I had to pay 5 other pilots what their time was worth it would be so far in the negative that it would be impossible. Mind you I'm not crying about this because I don't really haul **** around in frieghters much and if I do it's mostly just my own stuff that I need moved. I'm just pointing out that for me as things are now I don't haul because it's too much risk and too little isk. If haulers had to hire escorts in high sec I'm sure others would find better ways to make isk as well. That's not to mention that there is not much that other pilots can do to help guard against a gank.

scouts are useless you already know what the gank systems are and the gates there are perma camped by known gankers. I'm not sure what useful intel you think a scout will give you

However concord does protect gankers from anyone coming to clear them off a gate before they do their job. I see that as a huge imbalance in game mechanics.

Yes I'm sure that I am I'm wondering if you are. Yes I understand that you can attack these guys once they attack. When you travel through any of the high 0.5 sec gates on the main pipes you see dozens of gankers sitting there and I know of no ship that can lock up dozens of ships at once so you need wait and see who shoots and wait for them to go red before you can lock and either ECM them or shoot at them in either case they only plan on making it about 15 seconds or so anyway so if you can't even attempt to shoot or jam them for 5 or so seconds you are not taking that ship out of the equation only reducing it's effectiveness.

For gankers to add another ship or two just incase you have help which they will do if more people start having escorts is not a huge expense increase but having escorts is.

As far as -10 pilots I'm not a ganker and don't know how they gank like they do but I am assuming they are off grid and jump in ship stored in an orca and warp to gank when their scouts tell them the freighter will be on grid. Yes you can shoot -10 players but they are going flashy red as soon as they land an lock anyway so the sec status has nearly no adverse affect.

I am not saying that there is nothing that friends could do to help what I am saying is that you need expensive T2 ships like command ships and they need to always be with all of the freighter pilots all the time where as the gankers only need to counter that with a couple extra cheap T1 ships and only when the gank is happening.

On one side you have a need for more expensive ships to permanently be with you and on the other side you have cheaper ships that only need to be there for the time that the gank is happening. I don't do this game play so it does not affect me. I'm just saying there is no balance here and the risk versus reward ratio just does not match up.

EhmGǪ so the impossible is deemed Gǣfar too easyGǥ in matters that relate to ganking and is now grounds for just one more nerf? You people are really going off the deep end here.

You understand that there is no wreck for the killer to abandon, right? So yeah, no. Please provide a rational reason why ganking needs to be nerfed in any way whatsoever.

1) I don't see the point of implying Eve Uni in this: I think forum is a place where a relative new player could learn/ask question as well?
2) last time I saw a ship ganked, it seems to me that the wreck of that ship was blue, but I may be wrong in which case, my suggestion is actually pointless and I will remove it, but just to be sure: do you mean that if a player A is ganked by a player B (ie.: killed illegitimately), the wreck A (I don't care of the wreck B) cannot be abandoned by the player B, and in consequence, a player C cannot loot it without being suspect?

Thanks

Well, in that case, I'm wrong :s

Thanks for the precision, I'll look better next time!

Any negative impact on the ganker can be overcome. Loose a ship, buy a new one with the dropped loot. No loot dropped, work for someone who builds freighters. The Sec status goes to crap, rat a little, that will fix it.

Might as well remove any negative impact. It does nothing.

Buff it or remove it.

That is an excellent question that I have wondered myself. For all I know Red Frog could be the ones doing the ganking or paying "protection" fees. I mean it makes sense you either gank a whole bunch of freighters on alts or pay someone else to gank freighters that aren't yours then you know that you are safe to afk auto pilot your contract freighters with little to no worries.

If red frog isn't behind this they should be. It would increase the value of their service, increase the use of their service and decrease the number of other's not in their control to feel the need to make freighters feel less safe.

Believe you me, it's not them doing it. I have attempted to infiltrate them before, and they are carebears to the core. If you even agree with the concept of ganking you aren't allowed in, and they have a background check that beggars belief for simple hauling.

You need to apply Occam's Razor to this one. Is it that they are part of some gigantic conspiracy, or is that the means and methods by which to avoid ganking that we keep telling people about actually work, and Red Frog does those things?

So... conspiracy, or they're just careful? Take your pick.

Why can't anyone spell lose?

THERE IS ONLY ONE DAMN O!!!

You would need a stupidly valuable cargo to bother spawning Concorde using alts on all the gates between Jita and Dodi or Amarr.

Though it might be an interesting thing for a large freight corp to do.

Unless you're Han Solo.

Originally, Han shot Greedo first without any reaction. But then GM George Lucas patched it so Greedo at point blank range shot a blaster like any good Storm Trooper and missed with Han reacting and shooting second. But most, if not all fans - including a recent picture of Harrison Ford on the set of the new Star Wars movie holding a hand written sign stating "Han shot first." feel Han Solo was wronged with the GM patch.

So therefore, in a round-about way, Han did "shoot back first" if everyone momentarily ignores the GM patch.

I do agree that the current "punnishment" reduces the number of people who choose this profession or choose to do it to manipulate the supply and demand for freighters.

I personally don't think gankers should be "punished" anymore then what happens currently. They know the risks and rewards of their actions. They see the reward, knowing that there is a 100% chance of ship death and sec status hit. Gankers are smart, they do the math.

But lets be honest, NO Freighter is safe no matter what mods you put on or this backup you speak of. If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 100% chance that it would get blown up. Am I right?

100% of the time, gankers will win. That does not sound balanced to me.

I'll give you that. I noticed at the time but thought... meh.

What I meant was, if a person is taking a clearly hostile action, you cannot shoot back.

Sorry to tell you but I do not believe CCP that they really investigate into alt recycling.

I just witnessed a freighter gank where around 15 catalysts flew in with nice standing. Considering the current gank rate, the fact that it is always the same Machariel pilot doing the freighter bumping, I have a hard time believing that they recruit a new set of 10-20 pilots for a gank.

If CCP would enforce their own rules gankers would fly in being cherry red like the baboon derrieres they are. This would allow preventive actions against this pest. Having to wait until they become criminals just makes it more difficult.

Once gankers travel with enough negative security status we can counter them before the gank

Then maybe the solution would be high sec stations not accepting to dock players with a dreadfully low sec status. Like players who get their overly expensive ships killed have to farm isk to get them back, people who have a -10 sec status should definitely spend some time to grind sec status. Seems fair (which is why this option will likely be unpopular).

70 pages so far of carebears and gankbears proving they won't undock if it means risking anything of value.

Carebears cry, CONCORD protect me.
Gankbears cry, CONCORD protect my high security Alts.

Result is, PvP = 0

Anyone who's played early Lineage 2, and took part in the almost contrant epic battles knows that EVE needs some of the following.

1) Removal of CONCORD, or at the very least reduce the response time by about 1000%.
2) A better flagging system. (group members flag, flags for scanning, and so on.)
3) No safe areas in high security for criminals that destroyed too many ships of people that don't fight back.

Part of the reason the great battles of EVE happen when someone screws up is because everyone is risk averse and everything is a math equasion. It's like watching Math Majors pretend to do battle.

This can be arranged. Which group of players would you like to see targetted next? Mind you we're already targetting basically everyone, but I can offer an extra incentive in the form of bounties to have people focus on a particular group more.

Why does the frequency of ganking matter exactly? Should it not be the individual circumstances of the gank that are balanced?

I would think that if you are one of the people who gets ganked, you don't really care about how rare it is. If you get ganked in a freighter with reinforced bulkheads and nothing in your cargo, and still lose the ISK war to pirates in *high security space*, well that just seems wrong. It seems to be what the OP was about anyway. And no, it doesn't make sense to have to scout your empty freighter through HS. It's mechanics like that that drive people away from the game (i.e. "Alts Online"). If you get killed in scenarios like this you should at least win the ISK war.

So to recap:

Ganking is up, or down, or flat. One of those is bound to be right.
CFC is resetting RZR and renting out Tenal.
Tippia has apparently won Eve at some point.
T3s are still not peacetime reimburseable.
Hulks are terrible for solo mining.

Please learn what words mean.



In other words Hi-Sec miners need to have a hard lock on their mining ships at proc level, thus extending even further the tediousness of their grinding?



Funny how all your input on this subject seems to end up being 'miners deserve whatever they get'. I'd love to see how you feel about ship prices if all those miners stop mining.

Please explain how I am wrong in your opinion


What? Sorry on what planet does a Proc mine signifigantly less than the tankless heap that is a Ret? Have you actually looked at statistics or are you guessing?




No, my input is that morons who dont take responsibility for their actions get what they deserve.

I have stated THREE TIMES already that I have alts, friends and slaves who all mine perfectly well and have not suffered ganks in MONTHS and yet you refuse to even ackowledge this fact.

The risk of undocking in high sec is increasing rapidly and the rewards for doing so need to be buffed...

Big time

He took a expensive risk and lost, big whoop. But what would his reward have been if he won? My point is hi-sec is riskier than "civilized" null sec and a risk - reward system should reflect that.

Your not getting rid of me

Lmao! No the fact that there is no better info available does not mean your admittedly flawed stats "stand" by default. Your stats actually show nothing to prove the "very very small" chance of having a freighter ganked in Uedama, unless of course you can provide a % of freighter jumps?

Take for example if the number of freighter jumps for the same period are 3, that would mean with 3 freighters ganked there is a 100% chance of being ganked in Uedama. See how easily we can bend stats to fit our needs?

He based his numbers on 35k the total number of jumps then tied that to the number of hauler loses.

If you're correct and it's a 1/200 chance to lose a freighter, then freighter ganking is too high in Uedama as it takes over 2000 jumps to replace the freighter hull alone, forget any cargo it was carrying. 625k Isk per jump is based on the market value of 1bil collateral, freighter cargo size, jita-dodixie from push industries.

See how pointless it is to debate the unknown?

I agree with you and based on the numbers, ganking once again seems to be in a good place, no changes required. 2 reasons I'm still talking

#1 jonah still doesn't seem to get it

#2 we only have 4 pages to go!

No, it most certainly is in question, and you piping up trying to smack down any dissenting voice on the subject doesn't make it any less so. Eve is a huge balancing act, it thrives on being edgy, hardcore and dangerous, but if it ever gets too much so then the new subscriber numbers will drop to an unsustainable level.

CCP know this, which is why they keep bringing in small nerfs to the various forms of griefing that hurt new players. Of course in typical Eve fashion, the bitter vet response to this is to just up their game and be even more dickish, which is certainly going to work out exactly as they expect. Like the last 20 or so times.

On an unrelated note, today is my birthday, and I'm posting to the EVE-O forums. How sad is dat?

I'm fine with that.,

It's not hypocritical. A one off gank of an Orca is vastly difference than a large group of organised players who play the game solely for the purpose of ganking as many ships as they can, even when there is no profit to be had. Empty freighters, even when tanked, are sometimes killed just because they can (proof that ganking is too easy or that the punishment is not severe enough) It's not specifically ganking by itself that is the problem, it's that people are now taking it too far and efforts should be made to curb that behaviour.